Damsel in Distress: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[Suicide]

An interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She makes good points. But like many taking study in these types of things leaves out exceptions to the rule they present. No mention of Samus? REALLY? Samus is the same generation as Peach and Zelda and you're not even gonna MENTION that she existed because it's contrary to her point. Come on.

[somedude37]

Ditto. Samus should have been mentioned in this somewhere. One of the first strong female protagonists in videogames going all the way back to the mid 80's and she's left out completely? And you know if she had included her it would have actually allowed her the opportunity to make a counterpoint in support of her argument: the fact that Samus wasn't openly portrayed as a female character in the original Metroid. There was no reference made to Samus's gender and it wasn't clear until you beat the game and got at least the ending with her helmet off that Samus was in fact a girl.
She could have used that hiding of her gender to show that it was clearly an attempt on Nintendo's part not to scare away male gamers from playing a game with a female heroine.

Also, I don't think she even mentioned Chun-Li or Cammy from Street Fighter did she? Chun goes all the way back to 1990 or '91 I believe, and Cammy showed up in '94. There's two longtime female ass-kickers right there she could have brought up, not to mention all the other ladies in fighting games who aren't just damsels waiting to be rescued.

I can understand that she's frustrated with the damsel theme in games being so persistent over the years, at least in most genres. But there's nothing that's going to change that until the female-to-male ratio of gamers draws significantly closer than what it is now. There's probably more female gamers playing now than ever, but it's still a male-dominated hobby and industry and most companies are still going to make games with guys in mind for the foreseeable future. That means they'll keep putting DiD in the games too because most of us guys like it.

I wish someone would tell this girl that not all guys view DiD as some macho power-and-control-over-women thing. I've never felt that way about it at least. Quite frankly if DiD/bondage didn't make girls look and sound so friggin' beautiful and sexy I probably wouldn't even give a crap about it. My enjoyment of it has nothing to do with me needing to feel superior to women. Sadly, I think many females with feminist leanings are under that impression. Maybe we need to do a better job of setting the record straight.

[Nandah]

I wish someone would tell this girl that not all guys view DiD as some macho power-and-control-over-women thing. I've never felt that way about it at least. Quite frankly if DiD/bondage didn't make girls look and sound so friggin' beautiful and sexy I probably wouldn't even give a crap about it. My enjoyment of it has nothing to do with me needing to feel superior to women. Sadly, I think many females with feminist leanings are under that impression. Maybe we need to do a better job of setting the record straight.

You have the point here, sir. I love DiD since I was a kid, and I don't think I should feel like a criminal because of enjoying the view of bound and gagged girls. It has nothing to do with that sexist vision most of those feminist pretend to give to this trope; some of us, like Suicide and myself, going no further, enjoy CiD as well, as we appreciate the increasing of a damsel's helplessness if their male rescuer is sharing her trouble or captivity with her.

I understand and actually share the goals behind the feminist movement, but sometimes I think that most of feminist women are just too bitter with male gender and they'd live much happier if we men were all castrated. And I have someone else to add to the videogame female heroines to the list: nobody remembers Lara Croft? Her gender wasn't hidden at all from her very first game. And there's also some less known titles to the general public with female protagonists, such as Beyond Good and Evil, or even Primal, where actually the role twitches and it's the girl, Jen, the one who must rescue her boyfriend from the clutches of horrible demons. Ah, of course, there's a DiD in that one, a single moment when Jen losts her powers and gets captured by one of the villains... But 90% of the game? You play like her and beat the crap of every demon's ass who stands in your way.

Of course we shouldn't set female characters aside. I always appreciated Avatar over other anime series like Naruto precisely for treating powerful women as worthy rivals and true fighters and not falling into the chickification trope. But radicalism only leads to Equalizer raids, and we all know about the consequences of "holy wars", so to speak...

Conclusions: DiD and let to DiD

[Suicide]

I can understand where she's coming from. The trope does exist to objectify the woman in the most literal of sense when used in story telling. I just feel there have always been examples to the contrary (strong female leads) in all media and to choose to exclude an obvious example feels deceptive. Maybe she's saving that for part 2 but leaving Samus out is silly since she was the same generation and company as your two biggest examples.

Ah, of course, there's a DiD in that one, a single moment when Jen losts her powers and gets captured by one of the villains

Buh?? Do tell? I think I saw a let's play of that. Do you know around what part of the game this happens? Or if the scene is worth checking?

[Nandah]

Oh, sure thing It happens on Aetha, the third demon world of the game, and one of the two realms linked with Chaos. The first time Jen gets into the villain's palace, Count Raum, she's caught out of guard by his personal guard and taken to his private lab. Her gargoyle team mate Scree finds her locked inside an iron lady. Later in that part, she's tied to a table so a slave can drain her blood in order to mix it with Raum's wine and intoxicate him.

[Suichiro]

She's trying to make a point and crafting her examples to support it. It's a mark of good debating. The main issue at hand here isn't that strong female leads exist, it's that strong female leads are so few in number that they're disproportionate. If the numbers of male and female leads, as well as weak supporting characters, was more equal then we wouldn't be having all this discourse about it. For every Samus, Lara, and Bayonetta, there's twelve Master Chief, Dante, Kratos, Duke, Solid Snake, Ryu, Gordon Freeman, Mario, Link, Guybrush, Cloud, Arthur the Knight, and Alucards.

Commander Shepard doesn't even count here, because s/he's gender neutral. Chun Li and Cammy are a bad example as well, because they make up under 12% of the roster of their game (SuperStreetFighterII.)

I can understand people being annoyed by the omission of facts specifically to support an argument, but there *is* a problem here. If Anita needs to strengthen her argument by crafting her facts like this, then I will accept it. Considering how much hate and vitriol there is from the community towards her and the idea that she dares to confront it.

[Suicide]

But she makes the point of this being the girl's role in games of that generation and how that can be damaging to the culture. It does a massive disservice to her argument by excluding an example contrary to hers. If she wanted to make the point of "Samus is nice but these examples are far and few between" then make THAT argument. Don't just say "this is how it was" when you have a clear example to the contrary staring everyone in the face and try to ignore it.

And I really think you need to rethink your definitions of hate and vitriol. O_o

[mutantoverlord]

gotta agree to a point with that statement. women should not be looked upon merely as objects and such and all, and she does make a few points. though it seems that she discluded strong female characters to make her point seem stronger than it really is, which weakens the statement instead. like those goes who claim violent media means violence period yet do not provide access to the information that contradicts their data.
unfortunately far too often i see a woman crying sexism fall into hypocrisy or ignorance. she isn't there i would say, but it is far too often.

[mutantoverlord]

Considering how much hate and vitriol there is from the community towards her and the idea that she dares to confront it.

hate and virtriol? there is no hate here. hate is michael bay being within twenty miles of any beloved fandom (not starting that again but given it as a solid example). this is just annoyance.

And jsutified annoyance. she is using the same tactic that the people who try to get videogames banned period use. discluding contrary information to make their point seem stronger. in reality this makes it much weaker. now if she did include examples of strong female leads or side characters, samus aran for example of a lead. Lady from devil may cry may be a fair example fo a secondary character, as she was determined to the point of being almsot suicidal and when the hero rescued her from a fall, she shot him in the head for his efforts. Morrigan from Dragon Age is a strong example of a non damsel, as she takes shit from nobody and does as she wishes.
if she included morrigan as an example of a strong female character then i would actually take her views more seriously, because she has considered both sides of the issue yet still feels that there is something humiliating to women in this all. and bring up that there are still more male heroes than female, which i have to agree with to a point.

then again there is kind a double standard to this. if they suddenly made more and more female characters, one would probably go up and argue that it is sexist for another reason.

....and sometimes even the damsels can be badasses. all the way back to star wars a new hope leia freaking resisted torture and touted a pistol blaster the moment she was freed...... then again i contribute her being a non damsel to the existence of jar jar binks, a character created because, well, lucas probably realized that they can't have all organic characters be hardass and blaster wielding, albeit he did it in the worse way.......
then we have elizabeth from the upcoming bioshock infinite. true you rescue her from a tower, but from the previews, you are not whisking her into your arms, she snatches a key from ya hands and runs out of her holding moments later.
and there are plenty of non videogame characters that can be put into the badass damsel section of the book. aria from Eragon is my favorite, cause she ain't no dainty flower. she was whisked away in the hero's arms becuase she was sick and weak from months of torture, a torture she endured without uttering a single word that would betrya her people and allies. the moment she recovered she showed she could ahve handed Eragon his ass in a basket before he could blink.

[Suichiro]

And I really think you need to rethink your definitions of hate and vitriol. O_o

How much have you paid attention to the news surrounding this issue? Because if you do any sort of digging at all, you'll see some unbelievable shit from the gaming community towards her. I mean, someone took the time to make a game where you beat her up. Seriously? Just because she has an opinionated view, doesn't mean that the backlash from the community is validated. While her side of the argument is slightly flawed, so is the opposition. In the case between two sides that are wrong, I'm going to side with the one who's been taking abuse for decades.

If all of the misogynist comments, profanity filled threads on Reddit, and threats of rape and murder directed towards her aren't hate and vitriol, we aren't living in the same world.

hate and virtriol? there is no hate here. hate is michael bay being within twenty miles of any beloved fandom (not starting that again but given it as a solid example). this is just annoyance.

Really? If you're not starting that again, why did you bring it up? It sure looks like you *are* indeed bringing it back up, because you just did.

[Suicide]

How much have you paid attention to the news surrounding this issue? Because if you do any sort of digging at all, you'll see some unbelievable shit from the gaming community towards her.

Ah that's my bad. I thought you meant THIS community (as in the board). My mistake. Yeah I'm betting there are lots of loud mouths that are saying uncouth crap. But that's par for the course in the gaming community sadly... hell the whole internet for that matter.

I admit I didn't even realize this was very widespread. I just posted it here because of the DiD clips in the video. There's some I don't even recognize. Probably should have commented on that instead of the political aspect.

[mutantoverlord]

And I really think you need to rethink your definitions of hate and vitriol. O_o

How much have you paid attention to the news surrounding this issue? Because if you do any sort of digging at all, you'll see some unbelievable shit from the gaming community towards her. I mean, someone took the time to make a game where you beat her up. Seriously? Just because she has an opinionated view, doesn't mean that the backlash from the community is validated. While her side of the argument is slightly flawed, so is the opposition. In the case between two sides that are wrong, I'm going to side with the one who's been taking abuse for decades.

If all of the misogynist comments, profanity filled threads on Reddit, and threats of rape and murder directed towards her aren't hate and vitriol, we aren't living in the same world.

hate and virtriol? there is no hate here. hate is michael bay being within twenty miles of any beloved fandom (not starting that again but given it as a solid example). this is just annoyance.

Really? If you're not starting that again, why did you bring it up? It sure looks like you *are* indeed bringing it back up, because you just did.

its not because i did not fixate on it, used it as an example of actual hate, and continued onto the actual subject of it all.

[mutantoverlord]

How much have you paid attention to the news surrounding this issue? Because if you do any sort of digging at all, you'll see some unbelievable shit from the gaming community towards her.

Ah that's my bad. I thought you meant THIS community (as in the board). My mistake. Yeah I'm betting there are lots of loud mouths that are saying uncouth crap. But that's par for the course in the gaming community sadly... hell the whole internet for that matter.

I admit I didn't even realize this was very widespread. I just posted it here because of the DiD clips in the video. There's some I don't even recognize. Probably should have commented on that instead of the political aspect.

didn't know that it was supposed to be on the community at large.

actually i think that actually weakens her credence to begin with. while i am UTTERLY against giving someone death threats over something as stupid as old videogames, the fact that this was obviously a much more wide spread thing makes her exclusions of contrary evidence all the less forgivable. i cannot accept the sheeer level of malice i have just discovered lookign things up, that is just ridiculous and immature. but i can understand it becuase he refusal to include this said information makes it seem more like a personal attack against gamers than anything. especially considering that most anythign has double standards to it to begin with. the world and more knows poor mario is suffering from blue balls rescuing princess peach because of it. lols.

in short, she should have been considerably more fair in her accusations, but the community attacking her is being little babies...... psychotic babies mind you, but babies still. and certainly are not helping dissuade her opinion on them very well.

[mutantoverlord]

then again isn't that the norm? instead of people taking an accusations and formulating a counter point to the claim, they go and threaten to shank them with whatever is at hand. that makes it that even incredibly stupid and easily disproven things, like that 2012 bullshit, can continue on because people are too busy being utter assholes over it than just providing the evidence.
albeit i could be a bit of an ass over that doomsday nonsense too, but that was only after the god damn mayan ancestors went and told the world that it was bullshit, and still people believed the world was going to end. basically frustration over a people not believing that a platypus exists even when you are holding a living example of one in front of their eyes.

[Truthseeker]

watched some of it but it's a one sided video since she's a feminist, as the name of her website and channel show. although I would have very much liked a game with krystal as the protagonist instead of that terrible "Star Fox Adventures" game.